Bluegrass Tom

Joined

• started 19 topics
• posted 84 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Bluegrass Tom

• 
  34

  I was called by a JW wanting a favor...

  by Dawn in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  yep - you read that right.. i had a message on my answering machine - a jw i used to know long ago, left a message, wanting me to help out with some legal matters (i have worked for the criminal justice system for about 15 yrs now).. my husband just about had a cow - here's someone who wouldn't talk to me at the grocery store, but has no problem talking to me if they need something?

  i thought to myself, could this person really be that nieve about human social situations - ie: if you're going to be mean to someone, don't expect a favor from them .

  ok ok, i know - i should show more christian attitude, turn the other cheek, and call this person back.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  I wouldn't call back either. But if you do end up dealing with this person in the future based on some unforseen events, be careful what you say to them. Say as little as possible. The whole thing sounds too strange to me.
• 
  15

  The offer that the WTS has made to you

  by Bluegrass Tom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  here is something to consider in wts speak:

  it takes about five minutes of time, a page from an encyclopedia and some electrical impulses passing between the ears to recognize that jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 b.c.e.

  with a little more thought (and some arithmetic), it can be realized that this means that the 70 years of desolation never happened.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  Here is something to consider in WTS speak: It takes about five minutes of time, a page from an encyclopedia and some electrical impulses passing between the ears to recognize that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 B.C.E. but in 586-587 B.C.E. With a little more thought (and some arithmetic), it can be realized that this means that the 70 years of desolation never happened. It also means that the 2,520 years can?t be counted from 607 getting us to 1914. Therefore, the Kingdom/second presence of Jesus, etc did not occur in 1914. Furthermore, nobody knows when this will occur in the future. It certainly hasn't happened in the past. The fixing of any date for the establishment of the Kingdom or declaring the sign of the end and all of its component parts is subjective at best, and merely speculation. With that being said, it is highly unlikely that any of us will see the end of this system of things during our lifetime. It is more likely that we will die while living in this system of things. With these points in mind, the best personal situation that we can hope for is to be remembered in the resurrection, whenever that may happen to be in the future (hundreds or perhaps thousands of years). We may not merit a resurrection at all based on Jehovah?s evaluation of us, regardless how we lived our lives. Therefore, at present, people are being asked to forebear living their lives the way that they wish and follow all the dictates of the WTS, etc. In return, the most they can look forward to is the chance that they may be resurrected in the future. No Guarantees. Who would take an offer like that?
• 
  25

  Wanting to leave JWs & Spouse problems

  by doinmypart in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  are you trying to fade or otherwise distance yourself from the org, but have a spouse that is a loyal jw?

  on various posts i read about some that are staying in the org, or having a difficult time because their spouse doesn't understand the change.

  i'll begin...my wife doesn't understand how i can turn my back on all the good things i've gotten from the org.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  The WTS has designed things to keep people in place. Pressure from the family to remain, perform, etc. It is part of the indoctrination process that they have down pat.

  Here is a general suggestion for you to consider. It's the middle ground. I will be implementing this myself.

  1. Confirm your love for your wife, and assure her to a point that she is comfortable that your problems are with the WTS not her, and you have no intention of leaving her or your relatives.

  2. Go to the meetings as you can, be nice, don't rock the boat. Don't share your personal views with the people there. She wants to be there with her husband, not alone. Fill the need. Don't badmouth the Society to her. Over time she will accept what you want to do, and you will be able to go less and less as you like. You can share with her, in an informative way the things that you have realized and feel about the WTS. This should be done in an atmosphere of normal sharing between spouses. Keep negativity out of it. let her know that you are just thinking for yourself.

  3. Once she is comfortable with things, help her to understand that this isn't for you, and you want to do other things with your free time. Nothing negative. Just that you need your time too, like she needs her time and she wants the Meetings. You don't stop her from the Meetings, and she shouldn't try and stop you from what you want to do. Mutual respect for one another.

  You and your wife are involved in an Organization that has a structure in place to control people. It is going to take time, perhaps years to free yourself of it, and maintain your marriage. It will take tact, and patience. You will have to sacrifice some of your personal perogatives for the sake of your wife. Just be good to her. You will need one another. Have faith in her and trust her. There is something between you, thats why you got married.
• 
  40

  Elders disfellowship my cousin

  by YellowLab in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  just a little background, my cousin is 38 and hasn't attended meetings for nearly 20 years.

  then, a week later, another elder and the circuit overseer came knocking for the same reason, so she decided to go to the thursday night meeting.

  then on sunday, she went for the talk, and was told she had an elder's meeting at 12:30 that afternoon.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  In order for this to have happened, someone had to tell the Elder's what she was doing, and gave somekind of testimony. Based on this, they are to have two Brothers look into the matter and report back to the Body. If the report indicates that wrongdoing took place, a Judicial Committee is formed, and it goes from there.

  Usually, for someone that has been out for 20 years and comes to the meeting based on a shepherding call from the CO, they would leave her alone, unless she kept coming to Meetings. Then they would deal with it. She should have asked who her accuser is. Sounds like WTS entrapment to me.
• 
  27

  Will the average age of Witnesses go up with time?

  by JH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  my parents go to a catholic church, and they say that the average age is in the 60's.. at the kh, the average age is about 30, if you calculate the age of the children too.. theoretically, the average age of witnesses should go up with time .

  if less and less people become witnesses, the average age should go up, just like traditional religions....no?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  My observation is that the average JW is in late middle age (50-60). It is true, there is a representation through all age groups. I believe in general that the reality is that only the older really indoctrinated ones are the people that stay. The DO's and CO's are now spendinhg time telling the Elder's to encourage the young males to Pioneer when leaving High School and emphasize that the Pioneer work is not just for middle aged housewives. That tells us something.
• 
  23

  Should we tell my sister in law she can appeal her DF'ing?

  by AlmostAtheist in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  gina's sister and her husband haven't been df'd yet, contrary to what we were told.

  she will be announced this thursday.. she's not aware of the "organization" side of the organization, gina and i both feel she is unaware of her right to appeal.

  if we tell her, and she appeals, i think she stands a decent chance of having it overturned.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  Almost:

  The Elder's were required to tell her that she could appeal the decision within 7 days of when they informed her of their decision. The Appeal Request must be done in writting. She can hand them a letter requesting appeal, and they won't announce on Thursday.

  The central point in the appeal, will be if the Committee handled it properly. She must be able to demonstrate sincere repentence prior to or at the time of the Judicial Meeting. She must indicate that her throwing the tree out, and her ceasing to perform any other wrong doing are "acts that befit repentence". It will all rest on these points, and the type of Elders that are on the Appeal Committee. The Appeal Committee is assigned by the CO, once the local Elders tell him they received an Appeal letter.
• 
  21

  10 Longstanding Problems that I have with the WT Society: A Summary

  by Bluegrass Tom in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have a problem with this.

  do they know what the right thing is?

  this must mean that college is worse today than it was years ago, but is now okay to attend?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  
  Here are some longstanding problems that I have with the WTB&TS. I really feel conflicted, and need to come to terms with the whole thing. Slowly this is happening. I don?t know where this will eventually lead me.
  
  I have spent most of my life in and around Jehovah?s Witnesses. This is over 45, approaching 50 years of association, so I have a first-rate personal base of experience. I have dealt with the problems that kids have in school, the Draft, college, I married a witness woman, raised a child in the truth, and was a MS and then an Elder. I vacation/aux Pioneered when I could. Many of my relatives are witnesses. I have been through it, seen and heard it all.
  
  I recognize that the WTB&TS has done a lot of good for many people, and helped them with their lives. This shouldn?t be taken away from them, and I won?t try to. But I also feel that they have done harm to a lot of people including me, and this is my problem with them. I have no hatred or ill feelings toward the WTB&TS, just feelings of conflict and frustration.
  
  I have no problem with doctrinal things such as Hellfire, the Trinity, immortality of the soul, the Kingdom, refusal whole blood transfusions, the Ransom, celebration of the Memorial. No problems at all. However, most of these things (except blood and the memorial) were figured out 150 years ago in the 1800?s, and several Ministers other than Russell were also on-board with much of this. There is nothing new here. You either accept these concepts or you don?t. That?s fine with me.
  
  My problems are not with the Bible, Jehovah (I believe that this is his correct name as pronounced in English) or Jesus Christ but with the WTB&TS?s managing of things. Here is what they are (in random order):
  
  1. 1975: I lived through this and saw many people adjust their lives for the end of the world to come in 1975. This is exactly what we were told to do from the platform (see August 15, 1968 WT, ?Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? and a May 1974 KM, P.3 ?How are you using your life??). 30 years later we are still here, and so is this system of things. Promoting the idea that Armageddon would come by 1975, so get ready, hurt the people who obediently accepted these things. Some were hurt emotionally, spiritually, and in some cases materially. They were trying to show faith, be obedient and as a result were disappointed and many became disillusioned. If they left the Organization as a result they were viewed as ?spiritually weak?, or that they came into the truth for the wrong reasons. This whole idea that the end would come in 1975 was incorrect and unnecessary to promote. It hurt people.
  
  2. 1914 and the Generation: I was raised being told by my family and responsible Brothers that I would never get out of high school before Armageddon came. The ?generation? would be no more than 70-80 (a life span per the bible) years past 1914, and that Armageddon would happen before this time period had elapsed. This is what we all were taught repeatedly (see October, 1876 The Bible Examiner, Vol. XXI. No. 1 Whole 313 and w58 4/15 P.238 ?The time to sing a new song? as examples). I heard this idea continually for the first 40+ years of my life, and believed it. The references in the Watchtower, Awake, and other publications are too many to site. Then in the November 1,1995 Watchtower (one year past 1914+ 80) in an article entitled ?A Time to Keep Awake? the understanding changed to ?Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term ?generation? as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.? I have a big problem with this whole thing. Jesus said that nobody including him would know the exact or approximate time. Only Jehovah would know this. We are 91 years past 1914, and 30 years past 1975 and this system seems to be going on strong. Why did the WTB&TS go past what Jesus said by trying to pin-down dates, this hurt people, and worst of all, why did I accept it for so long?
  
  3. 607 BCE: Only the WTB&TS uses the date 607 BCE as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem, because it fits with the 2, 520 years of the ?Gentile Times? and gets them to 1914 (see w68 5/1 p.268 ?Understanding Time a Help To True Worshipers? and w68 8/15 p.495 ?Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?? as examples). Every scholar, reference and historical source in the world recognizes only 586-587 as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem and not 607 (see Columbia Encyclopedia, sixth edition, Online Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Britannica and the Catholic Encyclopedia as examples). The factual historical record does not support the use of the date 1914 as the end of the Gentile Times and the exact date for the establishment of the Kingdom. This gets back to No. 1 and 2 above. Counting time has proven problematic for anyone who tries to do it. That?s because Jehovah doesn?t want it done. That?s why a sign was given by Jesus, not a mystery method to count time. Also, I don?t recall seeing the WT commenting on the dates 586-587 BCE. These should at least be addressed since the entire world recognizes them, and the WT Society is the only entity I know of who asserts 607 BCE as a correct date for the destruction of Jerusalem.
  
  4. Scriptural Technical Reliability: The above points raise the question in my mind: What else has the WTB&TS asserted as a teaching that will be revealed as incorrect as more time passes? How has this erroneous thinking adversely impacted the lives of people who believed and trusted? Correcting errors like this can?t be covered over by terming them ?New Light?. It is patently unfair. Any errors need to be admitted, and then move on.
  
  5. NGO: The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York applied for association with the United Nations Department of Public Information (DPI) as a non-governmental organization (NGO) in 1991 and was granted association in 1992. The United Nations has confirmed this fact in writing, and will provide a copy free to anyone who asks. By accepting association with DPI, the WT Organization agreed to meet the criteria for association, including support and respect of the principles of the Charter of the United Nations and commitment and means to conduct effective information programs with its constituents and to a broader audience about UN activities. In October 2001, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York requested termination of its association with DPI when its membership was revealed in the Guardian newspaper (UK). Following this request, the DPI made a decision to disassociate the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York as of October 9, 2001. I still don?t know what to say about this. The answer the WTB&TS gave for doing this is preposterous and disingenuous. They said that they had to join to use the UN library for research information. At least they admitted doing it. I have a huge problem with this whole thing. I am afraid that if this was not discovered by a newspaper, they would still be a member. So much for ?No part of the world?. I wonder how the Brothers and Sisters who died in the German and Japanese death camps (just to mention a few) would feel about this.
  
  6. Donation Arrangement: When the WT Society started the donation arrangement in 1990, they said it was to further distinguish themselves from other organized religions, and would ?Simplify? things. The actual reason was out of necessity because of a sales taxation issue. This change took place principally because Jimmy Swaggart Ministries lost a court case, and had to pay sales tax on literature that was distributed and money received for this. The WT Society would be in a similar situation, and filed a ?friend of the Court? brief on June 22, 1989 supporting the legal position of Jimmy Swaggart Ministries in this case. Apparently, the WT Society felt that if Swaggart won their case, this would apply to the WT also, and they wouldn?t have to worry. I have a problem with this. The WT Society should be no part of the world, and not be involved with any other religion in any venue to be true to what they have previously asserted as the position of genuine Christians. In addition, the membership of Jehovah?s Witnesses should have been told the truth about why the donation arrangement was being implemented. It was not to ?simplify? things as presented. It was to avoid paying sales tax. How about ?render to Caesar the things belonging to Caesar?. Don?t avoid it. Be honest. We can take it. Have no alliances with any other religion in any way. Jehovah is on our side. We don?t need any help or an edge on things.
  
  7. Stock Ownership in Rand Engine Corp: Between the years of at least 1996-2002 the WTB&TS owned a substantial portion of stock (5,073,200 shares of Class A common stock) in Rand Cam Engine Corp, and a company known as REGI U.S. Inc (see Security and Exchange Commission file No. 0-23920 for REGI U.S., Inc. for fiscal year ended April 30, 2002 and Amendment No. 2 to Form SB-2 Registration Statement under The Securities Act of 1933 dated June 1992 for REGI U.S. Inc.). Rand Cam Engine Corp. owns a substantial portion of Rand Energy Group Inc. All of these companies perform research and development of engine technologies which have military and other applications. All of these companies seek out and have individually or collectively acquired contracts with, as an example, the US Navy (USN contract SBIR No1-144, announced on 12-6-01) to provide these goods and services they specialize in. I have a big problem with this. I don?t care how the WTB&TS obtained this stock, if it was a gift or they purchased it with money from donations, they should not have owned it or received the financial benefits of ownership in the stock. These companies serve the military with methods of armament, and make a profit doing it. That?s fine. Just don?t sermonize against the military and warfare, and then take financial advantage from it.
  
  8. Management Competence: Someone who points their finger at other religions and accuses them as being apostate needs to keep its skirts clean. You are either part of the world or you are not. The above points raise the questions: What else has the WTB&TS done that we don?t know about? They did not disclose the above to the constituents as a matter of basic openness. Why should I conform my life to what they tell me is the right thing to do. Do they know what the right thing is? Do they follow their own tenets?
  
  9. Intrusion into Peoples lives: The WT Society has historically told its members that they should not attend College (see g71 6/8 p. 3 Second Thoughts About a College Education as an example ), now this has been reversed (see w96 2/1 p.9 Education ?Use It to Praise Jehovah as an example). Members who listened to them years ago deprived themselves of a personal enrichment, and an ability to enhance their income and lifestyle to that of average. Many of these people today have financial problems and do not live too well because they did not pursue adequate means of earning a living (like getting a College education or advanced training in a craft) and instead waited for 1975, then the end, as they were encouraged to do. If College is okay to do now, it was always okay. According to the WT Society, the world and everything associated with it has gotten worse as time passes. This must mean that College is worse today than it was years ago, but is now okay to attend? In addition, if you do have a College education and have specialized knowledge in some field, The WT Society wants your services for free. How duplicitous. This hurt people.
  
  Furthermore, the WT Society has instituted a system of rules to obviously control the membership. They tell you to have nothing to do with anyone other than the Witnesses. This causes you to be isolated in a total Witness culture. Once isolated they use that isolation to control people. An example (and there are many); if you don?t follow a particular teaching and you can?t be disfellowshiped for it, you will marked. Congregants then think less of you, and must avoid social association with you because you have been marked (see Om 1989 p.152). A second example; If you don?t put in the national average in hours per month in the Field Service, you are not ?Exemplary? and the Elders will not appoint you a MS unless there are really some extenuating circumstances. If your hours are too low, you can?t run around the KH with the microphones, be posted behind the literature/magazine counter, or be an attendant, etc. If you are not used in some capacity, the other members of the Congregation see this and view you as ?spiritually weak?. You will be continually spoken to in a most subtle and condescending way by the self righteous ones in the Congregation (and sadly, there are many). This will all be a minor embarrassment to your spouse or parent(s), and then naturally, pressure is applied at home to compel you to conform. A third example; People are constantly being watched by other members of the congregation, and wrongdoing reported to the Elders for action/correction. I believe that the prime reason that the Circuit Overseer visits the Congregations twice a year is to verify that the Elders and the Congregation as a whole hasn?t gone renegade. Encouragement is a secondary item on his agenda. A person cannot disagree, question, or have any independent thoughts, and be tolerated in the Organization. If they do, they will be viewed as ?spiritually weak? or as a danger and a threat. Counsel and perhaps severe discipline is on the way if you express any difference in opinion. In the USA this is almost a violation of your civil rights. That is, to be socially or religiously reprimand for expressing your own thoughts and conclusions.
  
  My experience over decades in the truth has been that very few intelligent or well-educated people join the Organization, and those few who do, generally do not stay (no offense meant to anyone). It is difficult, if not impossible for an active, intelligent and aware person to remain a witness, not because the general belief system is unfounded, but because the Organization?s Hierarchy wants to control the belief structure of all its members even in minor areas. This just doesn?t work with people. The ancient Jews couldn?t handle it even when it came directly from God.
  
  10. The Faithful and Discreet Slave (FDS): There have been many different thoughts about who this is person or entity is over the past 89 years. The December 1, 1916 issue of the Watchtower indicates that thousands of readers of the magazine believed that C.T. Russell was the FDS and he also believed this (p.357). Later on in time it was asserted that the FDS is not a person but the WTB&TS (see w52 2/1 p. 76 ?Jehovah?s Theocratic Organization Today? as an example). This is an exclusively self-proclaimed identification by the WT Society. This general belief remains to this day with slight nuance. I believe that the FDS works for Jehovah and it is Jehovah?s sole prerogative to endorse and identify this entity. It is not for me to state an opinion who it is or is not, or for someone or Organization to state publicly that it is them. If God supports it, it will be apparent to everyone. No self-proclamations needed. I do ask one rhetorical question: would the FDS be responsible for or even remotely implicated in any of the above items 1-9 if they were actually the FDS? A person has to answer this question for themselves. No one can answer it for them.

  I am still trying to figure out exactly what all of this means to me, and what if anything I need to do about it.
  
• 
  25

  861,000 Left WT since 2000

  by Bluegrass Tom in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  the following is a summary of peak publishers vs. amount of people baptized since the 6 million mark was hit.. peak publishers.

  here is what the average publisher numbers look like.. average publishers.

  something happened to 526,989 avg.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  Scully:

  The 1,339,068 baptized refers to the years 2000-2004.

  The 768,730 baptized refers to the years 2002-2004.

  Two different time periods because the Peak and Average Publisher numbers hit 6 million in different years.

  In general, there are on the average 255,000-265,000 baptized annually world-wide. This confirms the above numbers.

  I appologize if my presentation of things was confusing to anyone.

  I will re-check all my figures later on today, and if any corrections are warranted, I will post them.

  By the way, these figures can be verified by anyone by checking the published data in the yearbooks.
• 
  12

  Jehovahs Witness and the internet

  by Dragonlady76 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading another thread of the high # of defections within the org, and this lead me to question:.

  when and if, do you think the org will totally ban jw's use of the internet?.

  i think it will happen, they are starting to see a big drop and need to curtail it some how, and they know that many surf the web and come across sites like this, and once people discover all the coverups and the "new light" stuff and personal stories, their are going to be questions that lead to being df'd or da's.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  I think that they will put the internet and computer use in the same category as "R" rated movies. If you surf the internet, you can't be used as a MS, Elder or Pioneer. If they ban internet useage all together, they will call too much attention to it and people will start looking at it, who normally don't. They will tell the parents to watch the kids, etc.

  The idea of the greater number cooling off is vague. Nobody knows exactly what Jesus ment. If they start that, it could become another 1914 for them. They have to stay out of that stuff. There is too much potential for it to blow-up in their faces. People are getting too smart for this kind of stuff.

  Let's face it the Jig is up. We will all see how it unfolds.
• 
  15

  WT a Member of International Federation of Religions and Minority Philosoph

  by Bluegrass Tom in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  i found an active web site: http://www.religion.qc.ca/fiches/fiche134.htm which indicates that the watchtower society is/was a member of the international federation of the religions and minority philosophies.

  this website is in french.

  if you use google to navigate to it, google will translate into english for you.. this is an association founded in switzerland and france on october 7, 1992, and is directed against the association's anti-sects.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Bluegrass Tom

  I found an active web site: http://www.religion.qc.ca/Fiches/fiche134.htm which indicates that the Watchtower Society is/was a member of the International Federation of the Religions and Minority Philosophies. This website is in french. If you use Google to navigate to it, Google will translate into english for you.

  This is an Association founded in Switzerland and France on October 7, 1992, and is directed against the Association's anti-sects. It started with 17 associations of which Scientology, Raëliens, the Church of the Unification (until 1993), Shri Chimnoy, Wica Western (witchcraft), Jehovahs Witnesses and the Patriarch are members. So much for "No part of the World".

  It appears to me that the member Associations are banding together to share information and legal ideas to prevent former members to speak out against them. A bunch of nervous Organizations.

  Source of information:

  DICTIONARY OF the RELIGIOUS GROUPS Today Religions:églises:sectes:nouveaux spiritualistic movements religieux:mouvements. By Jean Vernette: assisted by Claire Moncelon second re-examined and corrected edition: January 1996
  University presses of France ISBN 2 13 047036x